The Cheat Sheet: Dynamite and Determinations

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[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be covering two cases that we've previously covered before, and then two additional cases that both involve instances of police officers shooting and killing individuals. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of mental illness, murder, suicide, and violence, including the killing of children and an infant.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01] And I want to start off by giving you credit once again because I've been working on some episodes for 9-11. So once again, you stepped up to the Kane dirigible. You filled it with air, by which I mean you picked and researched four cases for today.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you very much, Kevin. It was my pleasure to support you in your time of busy chaos as you produce and write all of these episodes on 9-11, which are going to be very good. And I'm learning things about 9-11 that I didn't know about just from dealing with you in my day-to-day as you kind of throw out facts about it to me.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02] So I think our listeners are going to have something very interesting to reflect upon as we go into this 25th anniversary of 9-11.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm going to learn a lot in this episode about four different cases of your choice.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02] Precisely. That's the trade-off.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01] Because I come here, an empty slate, an ignorant, unwashed fool, a little squire. I'm just innocent, and I'm coming to you with my cheat sheet plate and saying, more please, and you're dishing it out.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02] Could a man describe himself in a less attractive way? An unwashed, innocent squire? Like, get out of my house. Let's move on. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet, dynamite and determinations.

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[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02] So for our... Where are we starting? It's like, no one can see this, but you like will sit in the screen. You're like a tiny head because you're like way back from the camera. And then you like whenever you want to talk, you just jump up.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01] I can't control myself. No, I know. I'm just full of energy.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01] I'm like one of those pop-up toys. What do they call those? Those pop-up toys.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02] A jack-in-the-box?

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01] I'm like a jack-in-the-box, only not like the restaurant, which I never cared for.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. Shots fired at jack-in-the-box.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01] So maybe I'm more like...

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02] So much for that sponsorship.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe I'm like all five of the guys all rolled into one.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02] You're all five of the guys.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01] Five guys. Because that's a fine place, right?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02] It's okay. I'm not... I don't love five guys. I understand why people do. I just don't share that love.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01] Okay, let me ask you this. Let's say... It's too salty for me. Let's say you wake up with a craving for a fast food burger. You can go to any fast food...

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02] Old Wendy's. Past Wendy's. I would go back in time and go to Wendy's back when it was good.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01] Well, see, the problem is as much as we might wish otherwise, time travel technology does not exist.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02] You don't know what my hobbies are. I have a life outside of you, you know.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01] Where would you go that exists today?

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. I'm not a... I mean, we don't really eat a lot of fast food. I used to be a real Panera head, but I think just a lot of places... Like, also, it's kind of hit or miss. Like, you might go to a place where they're really running stuff amazingly and the food's great. And then you go to some chain restaurants and it's like, oh, this one's kind of a dumpster fire. So, it's just... It's hard.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01] Like Rally's? Is that your favorite place?

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02] What's Rally's? I don't know what that is. I feel like you're just making up stuff now. Okay.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01] Rally's is a real restaurant and I remember going there once. I pull up to this place, this Rally's, which I'm going to for some reason, and the person at the drive-thru window says, welcome to America's favorite fast food place. And I said, well, I thought I was at a Rally's. Shh! That was my little joke.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02] Did she appreciate that, this fast food worker?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01] She seemed confused, but the lady...

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02] She really believed it.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01] The lady who was in the car with me got a good laugh.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02] Well, there you go. So, let's move on to our cases. We're going to Massachusetts to start off with. I'm sure, you know, just saying the state name will conjure what we're going to talk about in many people's minds. And we're just going to go over a brief update. We did cover the Clancy case. This is, of course, the horrific strangulation killings of three young children, Cora Dawson and Callan, who were respectively five years old, three years old, and eight months old,

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02] when they were strangled to death by their mother, Lindsay Clancy, on January 24th, 2023. I believe Callan lingered for several days, but ultimately died on January 27th. It was a horrifying case. And it's a case that has attracted, unfortunately, a lot of really stupid people who disgust me. So, it's been hard to watch the discourse of this case get derailed online.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02] Again, some of the most stupid things I've seen in my years of being in true crime have occurred in this case. And this case has actually fully made me lose. I've always maintained, and you will have heard me maintain for years on this show, that I think trials should be broadcast.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02] And I may have, I'm going to like see once the dust settles after this case, and, you know, maybe some time passes, I may change my mind again. But I'm at a point where I'm actually, I don't necessarily think that anymore. I think it might be better to stop broadcasting all trials and do what the federal government does and just not have it broadcasted. Because the problem is when you broadcast it and you remove all sort of gatekeeping,

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02] any person with a TikTok and desire to rage bait can put out whatever they want about anything, including like conspiracy theories about the real killer, which is of course happening in this case. And I just, I don't know. I feel like the destruction, the destructive and corrosive quality of this hurts cases and hurts the pursuit of justice and innocent people are getting wrongfully accused.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02] I mean like in true crime there's such a friggin' like oversaturation of like fake wrongful conviction cases that are not actual wrongful convictions. But people seem to have like no problem with just like accusing people who haven't even been charged the crime. And I think one thing that will help is massive amounts of defamation lawsuits and also maybe just, maybe these things don't need to be broadcast anymore because maybe the like, maybe it's like the internet or social media, like where in theory this could be fine.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02] But I mean there's just people out there who are uncivilized and ignorant and they kind of wreck it for everyone else. So that's kind of where I am. But this is a case that, you know, I mean it's certainly divisive and it's certainly like one of those cases where I can understand it being divisive. Like, let's leave aside the idiots, okay? Let's just pretend like they're not there.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02] But I can see people having strong feelings that Lindsay Clancy is guilty of murder. I can see people having strong feelings that Lindsay Clancy, you know, must have been in some kind of psychotic state. People, you know, people have their own opinions and they disagree with each other. And it seems like maybe that may be happening on the jury as well. As of Thursday afternoon, September 3rd, the Clancy jury is still out. This is their sixth day of deliberations.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02] And it's not like this has proceeded without some indication of what's going on because this 12-member Massachusetts jury has so far twice told Judge William Sullivan that it's deadlocked over this case, which of course is not about whether or not Lindsay Clancy did it or not. It's about whether she is criminally responsible for her actions. So they're saying this is deadlocked.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02] The judge has given them what's called a dynamite instruction, which is like supposed to be like very strongly worded, urging them to keep working to get to a unanimous decision. Don't abandon your honest views, but like keep going. This is an effort to save everyone the amount of effort and anguish that it took to put this trial on. And, you know, we may hear at the end of today, in which case this will be outdated for tomorrow,

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02] so I apologize, but we may hear that there is a deadlock. And the judge at that point may call a mistrial. It's not clear how this is split. And also there's so many possibilities. It's very hard to speculate. So they can go for first-degree murder. They can go for second-degree murder. They can go for manslaughter. That was added in. They can go not guilty by reason of insanity. You know, all these various options.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02] If it's a mistrial, so what happens next? Well, prosecutors will have to decide if they want to retry it or dismiss these charges or pursue some kind of plea deal. Kevin Reddington, who is the defense attorney for Clancy, has indicated he's prepared for a second trial. Given that three children were killed, I would imagine that there would be some effort to pursue, if not an additional trial, then a plea deal. I don't see charges being dismissed in this situation.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01] That's not going to happen.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01] Nor should it.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, again, people can have their own opinions about the quality of work done by the Commonwealth here or, you know, whatever. But when people are acting like they're shocked that this went to trial, I don't really know what to say other than, like, three kids are dead. It makes sense to me that it would go to trial and that it would be put before a jury, was this person responsible for their actions or not. I don't think this case is as clear-cut as many are making it out to be.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I think, you know, of course she's saying severe postpartum issues, medication, different things. I'm not criminally responsible because I was in basically severe postpartum psychosis. The Commonwealth is arguing she wasn't diagnosed with that and that some of her actions indicate some level of criminal responsibility here. And, you know, I think that people's opinion might break down

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02] on whether which witnesses they find more credible or what, you know, what they're looking at. And that's fine. It's okay to disagree. It's not okay to make a murder trial involving a bunch of kids a circus and one woman, I think, has been arrested for, like, taking pictures of the jury. And again, it's like, how many times are we going to do this? How many times are things going to become this stupid? And will anything of value be lost if these are no longer streamed?

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, something of value will be lost. The ability for intelligent people at home to watch a trial. But perhaps it's getting to the point where if these are having such an impact on people, and mark my words, most of these fiascos of trials so far have been with people overly identifying with the defendant and going to their aid, which I think is preposterous.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02] But the thing that scares me, and I don't think we've necessarily seen it happen yet, the thing that scares me is when it's going to be flipped and it's people going because they want the defendant to be convicted. And it becomes basically reminiscent of the very ugly period of our history in the United States where, like, lynch mops were a thing. And I'm not saying that they would necessarily have the ability to carry out such a horrific deed, but it would be that vibe.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02] And do we really want that? Like, this does not happen at most murder trials at all. It is a small minority of them. Certainly, I think, like, judges need to wake up and realize that if their case is becoming this juggernaut online, that maybe evasive maneuvers are necessary at that point to shut it down.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02] Because, I don't know, when you have the cameras rolling, people, I think, are mistaking it for reality TV and thinking they can go and get involved, and it's really inappropriate. So that's Massachusetts.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01] Well said.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. Now we have Indiana.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01] Indiana. And if my memory is correct, this is a case out of my own hometown, Columbus, Indiana, which my understanding is that some people believe it's the Athens of the prairies.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02] Is that what people say?

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I think you mentioned that to me once in passing. But why don't you tell me...

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02] I described it as that. Well, do you want to talk about this case? Because, you know, we've covered this case extensively.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01] Why don't you give us the gist and then I'll read the statement we got.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02] So this is a case where in 1997, a woman named Sharon Myers was abducted and murdered, and there was a trial. A man named Jason Hubble was convicted of that murder, and it was based on some pretty solid evidence. I believe a witness was able to essentially identify a vehicle that looked like it belonged to him, as well as, I think, at the very least, an extensive... Like, didn't they basically say the license plate number?

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01] It was very good evidence.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, and like, you know, it was pretty clear that he did this. He's a guilty man. Jason Hubble murdered Sharon Myers, in our opinion. You can go back and listen to our previous episodes on this case if you want to. Because while I think Kevin and I are both convinced that he is guilty, there is also indications that he was not given a fair trial because of misconduct by police.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01] So what do you do in a situation like that?

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02] You throw it out.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you can't say this person is guilty, so it doesn't matter that he didn't get a fair trial, because we all deserve a fair trial. What happens if we start violating a person's rights because we think, oh, they're guilty, then suddenly everybody's rights are getting violated. One of the problems about this sort of thing, though, comes down to media coverage, because you will often see the media say,

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01] oh, this person got a new trial or this person's conviction was thrown out. This must mean that this person is innocent. They've been exonerated. And that's not always true. In this case, all it basically means is the person's trial was unfair.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02] So what happened recently was the case was overturned, and the Bartholomew County Prosecutor's Office appealed that decision with the Indiana Court of Appeals. And we'll talk about what happened in a minute, but I'll just say this. This is a classic case to draw based on what you were talking about with the media. Watch what the media does when they report this and look for words like exoneration or wrongful conviction and things like that.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02] And ask yourself why frame it that way when what this really is is somebody getting off on a technicality. Now, I say that. I feel like that phrase has been hijacked by people who make it out like a technicality is not a big deal. Or like something went slightly wrong, so a killer is going to walk you. When we're talking about this sort of thing, like technicalities matter a lot.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02] Somebody's constitutional rights matter a lot. And even if you're guilty, as you said, you still deserve a fair trial. Defending these technicalities defend all of our rights. That is a defense attorney's job. That is the job of our courts. That is the job of the system to defend our constitutional rights. So when I say that, I don't mean that with any sort of disparagement.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02] I mean that like literally his rights were violated and he is walking because of that. I say that to distinguish that, though, from the idea that he's walking because evidence shows that he didn't do it. Now, his team says that's the case. They posit some other guy did it and was a serial killer. But when you look at that, the evidence against that man is significantly weaker than the evidence against Jason Hubble.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02] Again, I think he brutally killed Sharon Myers because he had an issue with her over a workplace dispute. And he should not be embraced as some kind of hero. He should not be given money. He should not be treated as anything other than scum of the earth because that's what he is. But he should be let out. Nobody's happy with us with this position because it's like people want to be like, well, he's guilty, so just keep him in prison.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02] And then others want to be like, he's a hero for all of us and let's have a parade for him. And it's like, no, neither, neither. You have to let a guilty man walk if their rights are violated.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01] So at the very least you have to overturn the conviction and then the local prosecutor gets to decide, do we retry them or do we just call it over?

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02] And the court of appeals did, when the prosecutor's office appealed this, they ruled saying, no, he should get a new trial, basically.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01] Well, they said the current verdict should be overturned. And so we wrote to the prosecutor, Lindsay Holden Kay, who's a prosecutor down in Bartholomew County. We wrote her basically saying, can you give us a statement about this? Can you give us an indication what your plans are? Are you going to take him to trial again or what?

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01] And she wrote back, the Bartholomew County Prosecute's Office is reviewing the recent opinion of the Indiana Court of Appeals in the murder case arising from the death of Sharon Myers in 1997. The court's ruling does not determine whether Jason Hubble is innocent or guilty, but rather that he is entitled to a new trial. Because of this, the case has been reopened and the information my office can share is limited.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01] However, I can share that the prosecutor's office will continue to evaluate the case and pursue any appropriate investigative steps as we determine how best to proceed. Further information will be forthcoming as circumstances permit. So again, the current case against him thrown out is now up to the local prosecutor, Lindsay Holden Kay, to decide are we going to drop the charges or are we going to take him to trial again? Again, we've never, we have no inside information here.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01] We've never talked about this case with Lindsay Holden Kay, but I do think it is interesting that she stresses in this statement what we've just mentioned, which is basically that the fact that this man got awarded a new trial does not mean that he is innocent. It just means that the trial he was given was not fair.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01] And again, no inside information, but we watched Lindsay Holden Kay argue this at the trial court level. I thought she did a great job. My guess is that she firmly believes, as we do, that this man is guilty. So then you're probably saying, well, if she believes he's guilty, what's so hard? Why doesn't she just immediately say we're going to file the charges and we're going to have another trial against him?

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01] The thing is, you and I, Anya, we don't know what we don't know, to quote former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. We don't know what is the current state of the evidence against Mr. Hubble. We don't know, are the witnesses who are still around, are they able to testify? Would they be compelling witnesses or not?

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01] Is there any new evidence that's come forward since the previous trial that might be of assistance? Again, this is a crime that happened in 1997. That's a long time ago. So I imagine her decision will come down to whether or not she has the evidence and the witnesses and whatever she feels she needs to secure another conviction.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01] And I believe, again, no inside information, but I believe if she thinks she has that evidence, she will proceed and take him to trial again. And if she believes she does not have that evidence and if she believes it would not be possible for her to get a conviction, I imagine there would not be a new trial and this would be over.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02] A prosecutor is ethically bound to not bring a case that they don't feel they can win. So, yeah, she would have to feel like I have enough to get a conviction now. Prosecutors' cases don't get better with time. They get worse, typically. And memories degrade. Physical evidence degrades. Everything degrades. So I'll be curious to see what happens.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02] I hope that she does have enough to do this the right way, to do this, you know, where he does get a fair trial. Because I'm disgusted with the idea of a man doing what he did to Sharon Myers. Essentially not only getting away with it, but getting the adulation of an unsuspecting and unsophisticated public.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02] The flames of that which are fanned by members of the media who don't really seem to grasp any nuances, nor do they care, seemingly, about reporting on this in an accurate way. I think a lot of people within the media have essentially become cheerleaders for innocence cases. I don't know why.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I have some theories, but I don't quite know why. But it's like, well, this isn't really what your standard... I mean, the thing that we all think about when we think of a case like this is like, this guy was imprisoned. And then we found this guy's DNA. And he has nothing to do with that guy. So let the first guy out. He didn't do anything wrong. And frankly, give that man a million dollars because we wrecked his life for no reason. That, to me, that's an exoneration.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02] And that man should be embraced and should be compensated for what he went through. Because what happened to him was not right.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01] But this case is not an exoneration.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02] This case is not even... No. It's a technicality. And it's an important one. It's an important one. His constitutional rights were violated because I think police did corrupt things. And things that were wrong and things that violated his rights. So that's not saying that's... I'm not being dismissive. I'm not saying that's not important. It's maybe one of the most important things we can do as a society is uphold that. But it's not the same thing as him being factually innocent.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02] And you're just not going to see a lot of distinction in mainstream sources, I think. I mean, I would love to be wrong here. If you're also reading any of these stories, I would encourage you, and you're seeing stuff that's not adding up, I would encourage you to ask for corrections. That's one way that the public can start to say, enough of the bias. We see what you're doing. And you're putting your thumb on the scale. And it's not appropriate. I think some people are not doing it on purpose.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02] They just are not super aware. And then I think others, it's just like the cheerleaders. You know, they're sourced up with the defense side and, you know, they're going to make them happy. And I just don't think it's appropriate. I think Sharon Myers' life mattered.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01] And I have a lot of sympathy for Prosecutor Holden Kaye in this situation. Because, God forbid, there is a realistic possibility. It has been almost 30 years. She may not have what she needs to bring this trial again. And that just may not be possible. I hope I'm wrong. I'm just saying this is a possibility. And no one runs to become a prosecutor to let murderers go.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01] So she's in a very tough position. And I have sympathy for her. I hope she has what she needs to try this case again.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02] Is this a case? It wasn't really basically also, like, supposed to be released in 10 years anyway.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01] Something like that. I don't remember.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02] So, I mean, that is also something to consider where, you know, if, like, they're not. I don't know how that would impact any decision making. But it's something to note. So are we going to move on to Pennsylvania?

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01] Wouldn't you tell me you like to call that the Keystone State?

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02] I think that's what everyone likes to call it because it's a state nickname.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01] And you like going along with the crowd, the Keystone crowd.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I like going along with the Keystone crowd. That's exactly right.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02] What are we talking about? So my sources for this one are the Associated Press and PIX11 News. And this is a very upsetting case out of Pennsylvania, out of Upper Potts Grove Township, which is northwest of Philadelphia. This occurred on Sunday, August 30th, 2026 at about half past midnight. This is in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. 22-year-old Glenwood Peisher IV had been out drinking with friends at bars.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02] And it was one of his friends' 21st birthday. So they were celebrating that, as young people often do, with kind of a, sounds like a bar crawl, let's go out drinking sort of situation. And they had a, I mean, they were being pretty responsible about it because they had a designated driver bring them home. And that was to the home of the birthday guy, like, who was celebrating his birthday. It was about 11 p.m. that night. Peisher left around 11.30 p.m. to walk to another friend's house to keep drinking, kind of keep the night going on.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02] And he got lost at some point. And he went to the wrong house. He took a wrong turn in the woods, went to the wrong house, got separated from his friends. And he thinks he's at his friend's house. He's yelling for them to open the door. He might be kind of, I don't know, like, banging on the door. Innocently. He's not intending to scare anybody or to burglarize anybody. He's just confused. And he's drunk, probably.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02] So, understandably, the homeowners get scared. If someone is, you know, banging around out there and yelling at, you know, late at night. I would be scared, too, to be honest. Of course. And they make a 911 call. And they think someone's trying to break into their house. So, in the meantime, Peisher is also trying to get a hold of his friends, like, what's going on? And they realize, oh, you are at the wrong house. We're going to come get you. So, they're going to him.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02] Emergency vehicles speed past them. His family has claimed that Peisher was on FaceTime with his friends at 12.32 a.m. And public records indicate that police were dispatched at 12.30 a.m. And arrived at 12.34 a.m. By 12.35 a.m., disaster had struck. So, you know, to give you more information on Peisher, he's described as, like, a good kid. His dad said he could be kind of a knucklehead, but, like, with a really good heart.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02] Just really kind-hearted. A really good friend. And he loved baseball. Wanted to teach high school history. He was in his senior year at St. Elizabeth University in New Jersey. So, the Montgomery County Detective Bureau investigated what happened next here. First officer on the scene was Upper Potts Grove Police Corporal Sean Farrell. He arrived. He had body-worn camera on.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02] And he can be seen in this footage, according to detectives, walking down the driveway with his gun drawn. The light on his gun is illuminating the way. He sees Peisher standing on the home's patio. Farrell, at this point, is standing behind a car in the driveway. This is all near the back door. Farrell yells at him, Police, let me see your hands. Then he yells, Hands up. Hands up now. Drop to the ground. Peisher can be seen in the footage on video raising his hands.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02] And he starts walking toward the officer. And he is continuously walking in that direction, even as Farrell yells, Drop to the ground. He repeats that command, Drop to the ground, and yells, Stop or I'll. And he doesn't finish that sentence. He fires two shots at Peisher. Peisher. Now, keep in mind, Peisher was 17 to 20 feet away from Farrell when he was shot. It's a pretty considerable distance. He was unarmed.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02] Now, when you're confronting someone, you don't necessarily know they're unarmed, but he was unarmed. And he also had his hands in the air. He was hit twice in the chest, and that killed him. Now, let's talk about some things. So he's, the distance is notable. The fact Farrell's behind a vehicle is notable. Now, it's fair to say that Peisher was not complying with Farrell's demands to get on the ground.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02] I think that was probably because he had been drinking. Like, I could see somebody in a scary situation, a police officer pulls a gun on them. Maybe their brains not quite working at that moment due to fear, due to the alcohol, and thinking, oh, I'll just walk over instead of get on the ground right away. He obviously fulfilled one set of instructions by putting his hands up, but he did not do the second one. I think that was an innocent move.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02] I think that's born out of confusion more than anything. What Farrell told other officers as they arrived was that Peisher had charged at him, and that he was screaming and yelling and wouldn't get on the ground. That's not what the footage shows according to these detectives. There was no screaming and yelling, and that he's walking towards him, but it's not charging him. Like, again, did Peisher do everything perfectly? No, but like,

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_02] does someone deserve to get shot over that? What do you think?

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, they don't deserve to be shot over that. This is an outrageous situation.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02] I think this is really egregious. And Montgomery County District Attorney Kevin Steele said at a news conference that investigators found that Farrell had different less than lethal options. He had a taser. He had other options at his disposal. This should not have resulted in a shooting.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely not.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_02] It didn't call for that. He was not in danger. And it's just horribly tragic. Peisher's family has put out a statement through their attorney, Ken Fulginitti, and I'm sorry if I'm saying his name wrong. Quote, the family is grateful for the work of the Montgomery County District Attorney's Office, and they're looking forward to justice in this horribly tragic, preventable, and reckless conduct that took the life of their son. So, what has happened is that Farrell has been charged with voluntary manslaughter.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02] He is being held. Bail is at $75,000. He has a preliminary hearing on September 10th. This is a disturbing case all around that seems like it needed to have happened again. Like, I'm of the mindset, having covered true crime like we have, that I, I think it's very easy for members of the public to second guess what police officers are making decisions, like,

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02] when they might be in danger, and it's like a split second thing, and they have to react very quickly to protect themselves and others. I don't really like getting in on that sometimes, because it feels like sometimes these are either nuanced, or there's areas of gray, and no one ever wants to see someone being shot needlessly, especially someone who's unarmed, but sometimes there's instances where it's like, they're not mind readers. But then there's cases like this that just seem egregious, and it's like,

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02] why would this have ended in a shooting when there was so much distance, and just a cooler head prevailing in this situation, could have just realized, okay, this guy's not a threat, he's just kind of a drunk kid, and like, let's figure this out. It just seems like, this seems like a shooting first, ask questions later type situation, and now a 22 year old is dead for no reason,

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02] and it's just very unfortunate. So, it sounds like the family is happy that charges are being brought. We'll have to see what a jury says. We'll have to see all the facts. Obviously, we're only hearing from this from one perspective at this point. But, yeah. Again, I think it is notable that Peicher did not comply with his demand to get down, but I guess I'm just like,

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02] does someone deserve to die over that given the circumstances?

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely not. No. Absolutely not.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, the answer is definitely not. And, um,

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01] I agree wholeheartedly with District Attorney Steele.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Now, let's talk about another officer involved shooting in a different circumstance that I think is notable and we'll talk about. PIX11 News is my source for this one, along with Reuters and Fox 5 New York. This is a horrible situation. So, August-

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01] It's an absolutely horrible situation. This makes me sick. It involves, uh, Times Square, which is an area you certainly used to go through regularly.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02] I hate Times Square.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01] I've been there with you.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02] I hate it. Sorry. I, I didn't go through it a lot because I would avoid it. Because every time I am there, I hate it. Not because I feel it's dangerous. There's just too many people. And, uh, it's just chaos. But, this is, this is, I mean, things that scare me are the idea that I could, or I or somebody I love could just be walking down the street and someone who is essentially

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02] a human ticking time bomb just happens to be on the corner waiting to go off. Like, if I had just gone down a different street or if I had just gotten out of work ten minutes earlier, I'd be okay. And, and the idea of that scares me because it's the randomness of fate. And that's what this boils down to. So, 49-year-old Pamela Cisnero was undergoing what appeared to be some kind of psychotic episode

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02] at the intersection of 41st Street and 7th Avenue in Manhattan in New York City around 424 p.m. on August 31st, 2026. And, unprovoked and totally randomly, she attacked two people. This is Times Square in Manhattan. She had two knives in a Target shopping bag. She proceeded to stab a 68-year-old man in the abdomen and then also stabbed

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02] 32-year-old Erin Piacente from Chester, New Jersey in the abdomen.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01] She was a new mother. I believe she'd recently been on maternity leave and had just come back from maternity leave to return to work.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. She was a vice president at Bank of America. So, she's working in finance, celebrating her marriage. Seemingly very nice lady. People have said nice things about her and was, you know, newly, newly back from this maternity leave and she was killed. I will tell you, Bank of America's Manhattan office is right near Times Square. It's at 1 Bryant Park. So, it would make sense that she would be

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02] over there for work and maybe leaving work to go home to her family. And unfortunately, she never made it because Pamela Cisneros stabbed her to death. Cisneros is from Queens, New York. She's also a mother. She's a mother of three. It sounds like, yeah, she had no reason to attack these people. They did nothing wrong. They just happened to be around her at this moment. They just happened to be sharing space with a severely

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02] mentally ill woman who was allowed by society to go, to go on in life to the point where she rampaged and ended a life and severely hurt another older gentleman for no reason. So, police said that, and there's like footage of this online, it's disturbing so I wouldn't recommend watching it, but police say officers with the New York City Police Department attempted to talk Cisneros into dropping the knives for four minutes.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02] She was still armed. She would not drop the knives. She refused multiple times. They tased her and it didn't bring her down. That's something later when we talk about this. So, after that, after the tasers failed to bring her down and get her to drop the knives, they shot her dead. And I've seen a lot of criticism of the police for that. And I just want to say I think that's really misguided and really fails

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02] to understand the realities of these situations. People say, well, why couldn't they just shoot her in the legs? Why couldn't they just taser? Well, first of all, the taser didn't work. Tasers are not foolproof. Tasers are not. Sometimes tasers work and they bring someone down. Sometimes they don't.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01] And the thing to remember is when a police officer pulls his gun out and makes a decision to shoot, he or she shoots to kill. That's how they are trained. If you shoot to just wound, you may for all, you know, just make the person angrier and make a violent situation even worse.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02] It's also, you're trained because the mass of the body, right, the chest area, like all, you know, that's where you want to be aiming to kill because those are easier places to aim. Like shooting your leg out, like you'd be more liable to miss and then have the situation devolve from there. Yeah, you shoot to kill. I mean, that is the reality. If we had some magical dart gun that could instantaneously knock everybody out without killing them, which doesn't exist because as anyone

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02] will tell you, the dose is the poison. You know, if you're taking out a five foot one woman, you're not going to have the same amount of knockout juice that you're going to use on a six foot man. Like all of that and people might have allergies, people might have like breathing problems, like all of that could get deadly very quickly and the amount of time it would take to find the right dart with the right dosage. I mean, like five more people could be dead. Like that's the realm of fantasy right now. If technology develops to the

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_02] point where that can happen, wonderful, maybe some lives could be saved, but in the meantime, this is the best system and if they tried to talk her down and she did not comply.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01] And they knew she was ready, willing, and able to commit homicide.

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02] Police do not have to subject correct themselves to getting potentially stabbed with a knife by a woman who has already killed somebody minutes ago in order to be doing their due diligence as far as trying to deescalate the situation. They did. They did try to deescalate. It did not work at that point. They did what they were trained to do and I think that is the right thing to do. It's unfortunate because I do understand that this person was likely

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02] in the ravages of a mentally ill, psychotic episode. But it's a tragedy all around. I think the real tragedy is that she was out and doing this when obviously you know, this is somebody who would have probably benefited from being institutionalized. This is, I mean, and again, there's no, there's no institutions. Like people often I see online, they're like, well, why wasn't she institutionalized? What does that mean?

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02] All the mental institutions are shut down. There is a dearth of beds for people in active crisis. Where do you think people are being institutionalized? Families of children and adults with like severe cognitive intellectual disabilities who cannot live on their own, cannot care for themselves, will never be able to care for themselves. They can't get help. Where do you think someone who at least can hold down a job and get an education and like

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02] is continent? Like, where do you think they're going to get help? There's no help. There's nothing. The only thing that will help people, in my view, is a place to stay for a while where they get intensive treatment and that where they are sent back immediately if they are in violation of taking their meds. So I, there's no help. people to start off with then start complaining that they're not institutionalized because we have it backwards here.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02] This is not a New York City is dangerous place story because, you know, crime rates are falling in New York. It is a why throughout this country do we basically leave the severely mentally ill to suffer, oftentimes on the streets abusing drugs or abusing their own families in many cases. Why do we keep people out

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02] who clearly pose a threat to the community? Now, her family has claimed that, is Nora having a bad dream? Nick's having a bad dream? Aw, my puppy. Poor little sweetheart. But this, this is, her family claims she wasn't violent. Her brother said bizarrely that she thought that she had bipolar disorder and postpartum depression. My understanding is bipolar disorder,

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02] in some instances, there can be, like, comorbidity with psychotic episodes, but postpartum depression, this woman was seemingly, she was 49, like, she was not postpartum. What are we talking about here? Having postpartum depression does not make you psychotic years and years and years after you have a baby? Her mother was complaining to the news, why didn't they just tackle her again? Like, I'm sure, I mean, these people lost a loved one, I get that,

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02] but I don't know where, like, if my relative did something like this, I would be ashamed of myself for not getting them the help they obviously needed sooner and being blind to the fact that something like this was going to potentially happen, because I can imagine there were probably signs. Maybe the family did not have enough information and knowledge to recognize those signs, but then maybe don't be complaining about what the police were forced to do in

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02] this instance. Apparently, this woman attempted suicide in 2019 and supposedly improved with medication. I, you know, apparently one of her daughters is in a full-time care home in Brooklyn with severe autism. autism. I mean, I don't know. Sounds like she was getting injections. That sounds like something a lot more than bipolar disorder, right?

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01] It does.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02] I don't. This problem is so much bigger than one city. It's so much bigger than this one case. The lack of treatment for severe mental illness and the DIY community care nonsense that we've been force-fed all these years strains our criminal justice system. It's unfair to the mentally ill. It's unfair to the families of the mentally ill. And it's also unfair to the general public. It's unfair to people like

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02] Aaron who have a job and are going to the job and then trying to get home to their baby and getting stabbed to death on the street because we just decided in the 80s and 90s that, you know, community care works for everybody and we might as well shut down all these expensive terrible mental asylums because we want to feel good about ourselves as a society and it's mean to lock people up. Yes, it's mean to lock people up when community care

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02] could benefit them and they could live a life outside in their community and everything's hunky-dory. I agree with that. But some people are not capable of that. And some people decide that after medication, is working unilaterally, I'm going to go off this. And if they do and they start acting up again, they should be brought back into the program because it's dangerous. It's dangerous for other people. I mean, it's not right.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02] We're turning some of our great cities into open air mental asylums for no reason. And we're acting like that's compassionate. It's not. It's not compassionate for anybody. We can do institutionalization with safeguards to try to prevent abuse, with safeguards to try to keep it humane, with safeguards to try to ensure that people who could live on the outside get those opportunities and get the support they need to

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02] do it. We could do that. It would be really expensive, but we should do it because it's the right thing to do.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_01] My heart really goes out to her husband and her baby who will now grow up without a mother. And I'm really, really sad for the life she and her family would have had that was taken away from all of them by this one mad act.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02] I agree. Again, I think people are getting sick of this. You know, why are we inflicting this upon ourselves? as a society? Why have we made this decision? Oh, because it's cheap. Well, you know, if a bunch of billionaires get to buy one less yacht, but stuff like this happens less often and our cities are more livable and there's actual compassionate

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_02] care for the mentally ill, then I could live with that. All right, so those are the cases and do we got anything going on? Any parting wisdom you wanted to share, Kevin?

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01] Don't we always have parting wisdom? You know, Anya, you remember, maybe this is before your time, I don't know when you started watching television, but there used to be at the end of 60 minutes every week, a few minutes with Andy Rooney, maybe he'd say something light, maybe he'd say something offensive, getting in trouble for it, maybe he'd talk about something minor, should we at the end of every cheat sheet

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01] say, and now let's walk down to Kane's corner where you offer some homespun wisdom or offer some commentary about one of the minor annoyances of life. No. You could be one of those people that you say the things that everybody else just thinks.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01] So that's something we should do.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_02] If you want to do that at Kevin's corner, you can, but Kane's corner is closed.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01] Do you have like anything, what's getting your goat? Do you like thumbtacks? Do thumbtacks annoy you? Is that something? What? That's the sort of thing he'd talk about sometimes.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02] He'd talk about thumbtacks?

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_01] He would talk about anything that crossed his mind. He was just a regular fellow, although sometimes he said things that were terribly offensive.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02] What did he say?

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_01] Well, let's not go into that now.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know who any of these, I don't know who that is. So you

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_01] don't even know who Andy Rooney is?

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01] Do you know who Mickey Rooney is?

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. That's who I thought you were talking about at first, and I was like, wait, that doesn't make any sense.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01] I was confused. Do you know who Ed Rooney is?

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_01] I think he was a staffer on the old Littleton show, but I digress. So should we have Kane's corner? Maybe one week it's Kane's corner, maybe one week it's Kevin's corner. We're just talking about our little pet peeves.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02] I'm good. I'm good on that. I don't.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, I'm full of awful ideas.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02] I know.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_03] You really are trying to destroy this show. You're sent by our enemies to just destroy the cheat sheet.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] When I was a child, I would buy, they would put out, he had a newspaper column too, but they would put out collections of his commentaries from his TV show, from the 60 Minutes. They're all out there on our bookshelf. We still have them.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_02] Of course you do. When have you ever gotten rid of any book ever?

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01] Our

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_02] house is full of books. Help us. All right. Well, are you quite finished? Do you have anything to say about it? Nick had a nightmare in the middle of this. I wonder what he's dreaming about. Probably people not giving him food.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01] He's probably dreaming of a world where there's no Kane's corner. I think he loves your homespun wisdom.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_02] He doesn't know what I'm saying except for stop jumping on me. Although he ignores that conveniently.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01] Are you like a modern day Jed Clampett only without the hillbilly elements?

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02] Are you kidding me? Because

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01] you have such a basic decency about you and just some simple wisdom that we can all learn from.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02] That's what every woman wants to hear. The man in their life comparing them to Jed Clampett. What's wrong with you?

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe I went a little too far. Maybe it's time to go.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_02] Ladies, where's that button? Hey, ladies, let's all yell at Kevin in the comments section. All right? Let's really give it to him. I think he deserves it. Think about what you would think of your boyfriend or husband was comparing you to Jed Clampett. That's all. Yeah,

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03] you really stepped in it this time. I got the women on your case.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening. And the male allies. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[01:02:52] Thank you. Thank you.