The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Flaming Framed: Season Three: Part Three

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04] Here at The Murder Sheet, we both wear glasses. But since buying glasses is a hassle, we hang on to ours for way too long. Like we've both held on to pairs that have definitely seen way better days. Anything to avoid having to pay hundreds of dollars for a replacement.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_03] Those days are over thanks to Zenni Optical. Zenni is an online eyewear shop. They offer up stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses, and customizable lens options, all starting at under $30.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_04] I've been wearing my Zenni Sausalito sunglasses everywhere. Bright light gives me headaches and bothers me when I'm driving. But through Zenni, I got to order these super cute, classy prescription sunglasses for just like $77. I'd expect these to be hundreds of bucks. But I was able to just put together my order easily online, uploading my prescription, then I was done. I was even able to use their virtual try-on technology to see how the frame looked on me.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03] I've been wearing my full-rim black stainless steel square eyeglass frames for reading. I'm currently reading a collection of vintage true crime unsolved cases. These glasses were only $68. That's a great deal. I love that Zenni lets you buy special pairs of glasses for whatever you want to do.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_04] That scratched up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order. Plus, free shipping on all U.S. orders over $65. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast, promo code podcast15.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_04] At The Murder Sheet, we're a small two-person business run out of our home office with the help, or should we say sabotage, of our dogs Nick and Nora. When it comes to running a business, or better yet, growing and scaling a business, expertise matters. We know that for a fact. That's where Upwork comes in. Upwork is a platform for finding, hiring, and paying expert freelancers. These are the folks who can help take your business to the next level.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_03] Upwork works because it's a one-stop shop. Recruit talent across software development, creative writing, data and analytics, marketing, business operations, and more. Whatever line of work you need, Upwork's got it across 125 categories.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_04] Now, I myself was on Upwork for years as a freelancer. I anonymously wrote a ton of romance novels for my clients. It was great. Super seamless, convenient, and easy. I took pride in my work in helping my clients scale their small publishing businesses. Plus, it was super fun.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_03] Sign up for Upwork today. It is totally free and easy. All you have to do is post a job you want done. Upwork takes care of recruiting posts, contracts, and payments. Join the thousands of businesses who already trust Upwork to help them attract top talent and get important work done.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_04] Upwork works. I know. I was on Upwork for years. Try Upwork today.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_03] Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Upwork dot com.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01] This podcast episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit Progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01] Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_04] I'm Anya, and we are about to finish up part three of this little miniseries responding to Framed Season 3. This is something we did not initially intend to do three episodes on, but they came out kind of long, so we're chopping them up. So apologies.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03] And content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, rape, and virtually every other sin under the sun, since Temujin Kinzu is in fact a horrible human being.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04] And we are also going to be cursing a lot, just like we did during the first two episodes. I promise you, we're not always cursing in every episode of this show, but this is a topic that we're disgusted by, so sorry. All right, I don't think there's any point in doing a big, elaborate opening here. We're just going to kind of pick up where we left off. Is that right, Kevin?

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_03] That's right.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04] And this will be the final episode that we do in this little miniseries. It encompasses the remainder of our response to the irresponsible Framed Season 3. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_04] We're the murder sheet.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03] And this is The Murder of Scott Macklem, The Guilt of Timurjin Kinzu. Flaming Framed Season 3, Part 3.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_04] I just want to say it is so rich to me that Habel's talking about how it engenders respect for your spouse.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_04] I think Paula Kinzu would probably beg to differ given that under Catholicism, she was basically had it foisted upon her that she was expected to have a sister wife. Despite not wanting a sister wife and despite not signing up for a non-monogamous relationship with Kinzu. So yeah, really respectful of your spouse, right? You know? Hey, Kevin, do you want to have a brother-husband? Am I being respectful to you? The fact that he's even spinning this nightmarish, bizarre cult as anything positive.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, well, it sounds culty, but he says it's good, so I guess that's good enough for me. Who would begrudge him any peace? And this is how you know. You know someone's Timurjin Kinzu when they have something and they don't use it. You have the book. You claim to have looked at the book. I don't know if you read the whole thing. I don't really know how much Habel reads any of this stuff.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_04] But I know very early on in the book, there's a whole segment where he outlines how he is the chosen one of humanity sent to lead us by the universe and how the evildoers of Michigan. I'm not making this up. This is really in there. The evildoers of Michigan knew that and that's why they framed him for murder.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_04] His idea of the framing of Timurjin Kinzu is that Michigan, the evildoers of Michigan somehow were represented by like St. Clair County authorities. I guess it's like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The Hellmouth is in support here on and they're all coming out and they all work for the prosecutor's office there.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_04] They're men at various levels of the state and they knew that he was the dragon of the Cathal and therefore special. And in order to prevent him from spreading his message of truth to humanity and preventing him from taking over humanity, they framed him. And his goal with this religion now is that it will sweep the nation. It will sweep the nation and basically get him to a point where he will be.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_04] I guess we're going to storm the Bastille at some point.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03] Of course.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_04] You know, as it happens, because we're all going to convert to Cathalianism. And like how Habel could read any of that and then be defending this and not at least saying like it's pretty fucking weird beyond it sounds culty. Like talk about how it is literally a cult. It's just like everything gets whitewashed.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03] I think it's difficult to read this book with a pitiless eye and see it as anything other than a sign of some serious mental illness.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_04] I think it's a sign of malignant narcissism. I'm God and I'm taken over. However, that's what it is. Maybe mental illness as far as personality disorders go. Yes. But but like I don't think he is insane legally. I think it's more like he has a real serious personality disorder. He's been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. Maybe it's that. But. He has no regard for others. And you know what? I'm going to say this about his little peace comment. I do begrudge him peace to Kevin.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_04] I begrudge Kenzu peace as long as he continues to begrudge his victims peace. And as long as he continues to badmouth and harass and stalk them. Then, yeah, I think we can all begrudge him some peace. He doesn't deserve it. He's not certainly not willing to give it to anyone else.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_03] I would say we really appreciate Brett and Alice from the prosecutors. They had us on recently to talk about our perspective on this case. They also had Mr. Habel on to discuss his perspective. We want to play a few clips of some of the things Mr. Habel said in this first one. I think it's an example of how Mr. Habel continually misrepresents the views of those who are convinced of his friend, Mr. Kenzu's guilt.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00] You can say, oh, this person might be innocent. And then someone will go, but he did this and that. He doesn't sound very innocent. And then you have to say, oh, yeah, so this person may not be a good person. They might be a dangerous person. But did they do this crime?

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03] He seems to be responding to a straw man argument that no one has made. No one, certainly not Anya or myself, has ever said that Mr. Kenzu is guilty of murder because he is a bad fellow. I don't know where he got that idea. Certainly, he would not have gotten it if he had engaged seriously with the content of this program. Which he did not. I think we went into some depth in our earlier series explaining just why we believe the evidence

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03] indicates that he is guilty. Let's have another clip. Here is Mr. Habel on the same program talking about Mr. Kenzu's commutation hearing.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, you just really have to fast forward past the commutation hearing because, you know, the current prosecutor, at least the current prosecutor back just a few years ago, actually said that his predecessor said, no matter what happens, do not let this guy out because he's the most dangerous person that has ever come into that county. He didn't say because he left a fingerprint or we found his DNA there. They didn't say any of that. They said because he's the most dangerous person. Now, is he? I don't have that information.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00] He seems like he could be a very dangerous individual if he chose to be because of his background and what his skills were. I would say, yeah, it's possible. But I don't think that's a good reason to prevent someone's release because one thing I know in this world is we all have our flaws. We've all done bad things.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_03] So he doesn't seem to understand what a commutation hearing is. A commutation hearing is not about determining whether or not a person is guilty or innocent. It's assumed that the person is guilty. The commutation hearing is itself focused on if we release this person, is he a harm to society? Mr. Habel even seems to acknowledge that Mr. Kinsu could perhaps be a danger to society if released.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_04] Barely. He says he has this martial arts skill to be a threat. He doesn't say that he's fucking, you know, is a threat and has been threatening people for years behind bars.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03] So he doesn't really seem to understand what the point of the commutation hearing is. I think you also got a sign there. He seems to think that you shouldn't convict a person of a crime unless you have really, really incredible. You have to have DNA or fingerprints. There are lots of crimes out there in this world where there is no DNA evidence and no fingerprints. That doesn't mean we can't get a conviction.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03] It just means there's other evidence that might get us to that point. If you're going to have the position that no one can be convicted without DNA or a fingerprint, you're going to have a lot fewer convictions. You're going to have a lot of dangerous people going free. But if you want to make the argument that we shouldn't convict people without DNA or fingerprints, make that argument. I think, though, that's not really what he's doing. What he's doing is he wants there to be as high of a standard as possible when it comes

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03] to his friend, Mr. Kinzu.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. This case gets treated very differently than other cases. I'm aware of many cases where there's not DNA. There's not a fingerprint. It's not that forensic evidence. It's largely circumstantial. That's oftentimes talked about as if it's lesser than. And certainly in some cases it can be. Right. But in this case, I don't think it is. I think it gets to guilt. And I think the kind of prolonged hissy fit from this guy's supporters over the years doesn't change that.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_04] And suddenly if you're saying, well, there's no fingerprints, so I can't convict. Are you holding every case to that standard? I doubt it. I really doubt it. What about murder conspiracies? By the very nature of a murder conspiracy, when you hire someone else to do it, there's not going to be a fingerprint. There's not going to be DNA that's relevant to the person who hired the person. This is a case that doesn't really lend itself to a lot of rich DNA sources.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_04] It's not a rape murder. It's not a bloody attack with a knife. It is in some sequence of events. Scott is shot with a shotgun and the person drives away quickly. That is what seems to have happened. And for this to be something where you're saying, what would he have touched? What would he have touched? Also, this is all happening outdoors in a parking lot. Like, you know, I don't. What do you want from this case?

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_04] Scott was certainly murdered. There was certainly a crime here. But he's suddenly saying, like, we need all these different things that I don't I don't think we did. And I certainly don't think the jury felt that because they convicted the guy. It's just this double standard with this case.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_03] You referred earlier to Mr. Habel's condescending ways. I think we're going to see that in this next clip, perhaps because of his utter lack of intellectual interest or curiosity when it comes to engaging with those who disagree with him. Mr. Habel also does not understand why passions run so high on this case.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's just they don't like the dude. And I think that's what we're seeing in this case. When everyone gets angry, you know, I kind of chuckle because I'm like, you guys won. You know, I've never seen so many people angry. It reminds me of going into some local gun stores out where I live. And these people are not happy. I don't know how, because right now at this time, they're enjoying like freedom of everything with guns. And you walk in and they're just like, you know, and I'm like, hey, can I and they don't want to talk to me.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00] So I'm like, you've already won. Why are you so angry? But that's just human nature. I think you can give someone what they want and it's still not good enough for some reason. And I think it's because there's a level of anger here that these people cannot they can't contend with it. They're so angry about this case and about Temujin.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03] I wanted to just highlight. That's incredibly condescending what he said there.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_04] He's comparing us all to what, like the NRA?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03] He's saying that people who have a different view are just ruled by their motion.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_04] We're like angry, scary gun owners.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_03] Unlike him, who's the great intellectual leader.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_04] Let me remind you of something, Kevin. This is very important to understand this. OK, this is very important.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00] And so, you know, at the end of the day, I don't have a horse in the race. Whether he gets out or not, it doesn't affect my life.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, he's lying. So condescending. And also, I think if you cover this case without understanding why people find it upsetting, you're committing malpractice, frankly. And you're also not very bright. I would say the reason people are angry about this case is because for decades, they've been lied to about this case. They've been told by people like Mr.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03] Habel that Kinsu is a wonderful fellow. Hail fellow, well met. A light of the world. They've been told that. They've been lied to. They've also hear people like Mr. Habel, as he's done in this program, minimize rape and violence against women to a really offensive extent, to an extent where they seem to be tacitly encouraging people to stalk Mr. Kinsu's victims.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_03] And that upsets people because I think whether you're a man or a woman, there's a great chance you know someone who's been a victim of sexual violence. Maybe you've been a victim of sexual violence yourself. You know how incredibly serious it is. And to hear people muck around in those areas so callously and to speak about the very

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03] real impact of sexual violence in such a casual, condescending way, it upsets people as it should. It should upset people. And if you don't understand that, you don't really have any business covering this case because you're going to do, even by your own perspective, even if your goal is Mr. Habel has said his goal is to get Mr. Kinsu out. If that is your goal, you don't serve your goal by being a bull in a China shop and just

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03] upsetting people needlessly. He could have done this series in such a way that he did not minimize the sexual violence and the rape. He could have acknowledged people have not been honest about this case in the past. He could have been the first to say Timur Junkinsu is a genuinely bad man who did really serious harm to people. I acknowledge that. I believe Crystal. I believe the other women. I still think he's innocent.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_04] It's always great when you get clothing that you just can't stop wearing. It just looks that good. It's just that comfortable. That's the kind of clothing our wonderful sponsor, Quince, specializes in crafting for you. That's why we love Quince and are constantly shopping there to restock and refresh our wardrobes.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_03] You are going to adore your new Quince pieces. We certainly do. Even more so because they're 50 to 80% less than similar brands because Quince cuts out the middleman.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_04] I recently purchased a 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in chilly red. I love it. We recently went abroad for a loved one's wedding and I wore it to the welcome party with my red shoes and I got a lot of compliments. I'm not really known for being super stylish so I feel Quince is my cheat code for looking effortlessly polished without breaking the bank.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03] I got a pearl snap denim western shirt in denim blue that I wore to the same event. I love how it feels especially as the seasons change. I'm big on comfort and wearability and Quince always delivers.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_04] Or if you want you can try their soft luxurious 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters that we also love. Those are starting at just 60 bucks. Don't just have to stick to clothing either. Try their hotel quality bedding and furniture to up your home style for less.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03] Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash msheet. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash msheet.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04] 70% off brands you know and love. That's what Rebel brings to the table. These days with prices on everything seeming to skyrocket, that's the kind of deal we can all get behind.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03] Shop at fromrebel.com. It's going to make you shop smarter. It's going to save you money and time. Rebel against overpaying. Rebel against settling for no-name brands. Try Rebel today. Shop at fromrebel.com.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_04] Their amazing inventory is always selling out fast, so there's a really nice rush when you find and lock down a great deal. Like right now, I've got my eye on a caraway set of cookware. You know we've been cooking a lot more at home for our premium show and one of their whistling teapots. I adore Irish breakfast tea. I really want one of those. I think the aesthetic would be so cozy. Those are being offered for over 50% off. That's wild.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03] We love shopping on fromrebel.com. We love getting great deals on brands we love and trust. This has become one of our go-tos when we want to make a purchase.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_04] Your next favorite find is waiting at fromrebel.com. F-R-O-M-R-E-B-E-L.com. Top brands in home, baby, and outdoor. Up to 70% off. Go check it out before it's gone. Don't pay full price again. Go to fromrebel.com. F-R-O-M-R-E-B-E-L.com. Home, baby, outdoor, and more. All at up to 70% off the brands you already love.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_04] We've been on a real kick lately to improve our health, and that means getting good sleep and rest. For us, that starts with amazing, comfortable bedding.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03] That's why we love our sponsor, Bowlin Branch. They create everything you need to help your bed feel like the coziest, most relaxing place in the world. Luxurious comforters, cozy blankets, supportive pillows, and of course, their signature sheets.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_04] Bowlin Branch has the preferred sheets of the murder sheets. We just got Bowlin Branch's signature hemmed sheet set in dusty rows.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03] We broke those out and immediately felt as if we were sleeping on those really comfortable hotel sheets. We got amazing sleep on these. No sliding fitted sheets, no issues, just rest and relaxation.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_04] These sheets are breathable. They're soft and comforting. Our bedroom routine is after we tuck Nick and Nora into their doggy beds, we both read for a while and then drift off. Both of us have struggled with insomnia at times, but with these sheets, with Bowlin Branch, you just sort of melt off to sleep. And somehow, these sheets have only gotten softer as we've washed them. Since we've got these sheets, we've even had a few lazy Saturdays where we spent most of the day in bed reading crime fiction. It was heavenly and so comfortable.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03] We adore our Bowlin Branch sheets and we'll never, ever go back to regular bedding. I forbid it.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_04] Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at BowlinBranch.com slash Msheet with code Msheet. That's BowlinBranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D Branch dot com slash Msheet, code Msheet to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03] He could have owned that position. And that's a position I profoundly disagree with, but it is an honorable position. He could have owned that. But I think generally, I know I'm probably rambling here. But the fact that he doesn't understand why this case upsets people and the fact that he chuckles about it just shows, pardon my language, that he's a condescending prick who never should have touched this case.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going to tell you something that this clip says so much to me about him and who he is as a person. But not only is he incurious about people like us who have explicitly laid out in excruciating detail why we think this man is guilty and why we are angry about it. He didn't have to cite us. He could have asked some of the people he's claiming to see on Reddit themselves, probably send them a message. Hey, why do you think this? Tell me. I'm curious.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_04] He doesn't have to walk away agreeing with them, but you could just ask people why they feel the way. Why do you feel angry about it? I think you'll get some pretty insightful responses. To me, what Habel's main problem is, is that he imbues Kenzu with, you know, such sympathy and such humanity to a degree that doesn't actually exist, to a degree where he's basically slapping lipstick on a pig.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_04] OK, he's he's telling us that this guy is such a gentle, cool guy, action hero, wonderful, so well-spoken. And he's none of those things. And he's in fact an odious human being. But he's willing to really be so compassionate with Kenzu. He does not have any compassion for anybody else in this case. He does not have compassion for Crystal. He does not have compassion for Crystal's family. He does not have compassion for Scott. He does not have compassion for Scott's family.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_04] He does not have compassion for the people who knew and loved Scott and Crystal. He does not have compassion for other women who were severely hurt and raped and beaten by Kenzu. He doesn't have compassion for Paula. He doesn't have compassion for Denise. He shows that again and again by making these terrible, snippy, sneaky, slippery comments about some of those people. And then omitting. Oh, he doesn't have compassion for G or Lena.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_04] And then omitting other stories altogether. So it's through lies and it's through omission. It's through attack and it's through just not mentioning things. And if he wants to look at why people are angry about this case, look in the mirror, Habel. Look at what you did. Didn't have to be this way. But, you know, you made bad choices in how to frame this. And cases are not your playground. These are people's lives.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_04] There are human beings who are affected by what you do because it's their life story. And it's what happened to someone they loved. And it's what they themselves experienced. And when you come in and you don't have any fucking respect for those people and you just treat them like they're nonentities because they're not talking to you unlike this guy. And they don't matter because they don't give you access. Then you're acting like a piece of shit.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Both of us are more emotional about this than we might have been in other cases. And I think that is because unlike Mr. Habel, we have talked to people who are touched by this case. We know them. And we can state for a fact that his show, this collection of old talking points and such, has caused real harm to real people who did not deserve it. And I think he should be ashamed. But here is another straw man argument that Mr. Habel replied to.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00] Some of his witnesses are people that they were very adept in martial arts. I don't think they lacked confidence. And I frankly would say that even though he was able to intimidate some people, I don't think you could say he intimidated all of these people. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03] So first of all, he tampered with the witnesses. I don't think we said he intimidated witnesses. He tampered with the witnesses. And I just think it's an embarrassing position to say that just because a person knows martial arts, they are too cool to ever be intimidated by someone else.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, these people were going to classes in some random Escanaba karate studio. Like, pretty impressive. Like, I'm sorry. Like, good for them. That's a fun hobby. That's cool. Maybe it was really important to them. Maybe they took it really seriously. That's wonderful. But to act like, you know, this badass crew, you know, it's just like he does this again and again with this whole, like, no one who likes martial arts could be bad. Like, I mean, like, he pretty much, like, kind of lays that out at some point. Like, no one who likes martial arts could be undisciplined.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04] Like, what are we fucking talking about? And I also want to note, as you said, I don't think they were intimidated. They were tricked. But he also says that he couldn't have intimidated all these people. We know for a fact that a law enforcement officer heard Kenzu on the phone with Manali basically saying, no, no, no, you saw me this day, you saw me this day. So he's pushing Manali around at the very least. I don't think he's intimidating him, per se, but he's tampering with him. Manali then goes and tampers with Dyer. Hey, don't you remember this day? Do you think it was this day?

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_04] And then they confirm it was Sherman. That's not intimidation, but it's still wrong. And also, all it requires him to do is to get to Manali. No one's saying he called all these people. No one's saying he did all that. We're just saying that, like, that's really problematic and a jury was probably right to have some real issues with that.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_03] Another thing Mr. Habel dearly, dearly loves to do, it seems to be one of his favorite things to do in this world, is to drag the name of the murder victim through the mud.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00] You know, the other problem is the victim in this case was a Macklem. And when your father is a political bigwig, you know, in your small town, I think it's a lot less likely, and I think we saw it in this case, that you're not going to be able to get a lot of suspects because they're not willing to look into the background, into the environment, or the people surrounding Scott Macklem too much.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00] Because, well, you might ruffle feathers. I feel like in this case, if they had looked deeper, it might explain what was going on with him at the time. We know he was a bit erratic with his college schedule, and a couple of teachers had remarked he might be failing. So there was some concern there.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03] So again, this is nonsense. Since this is innuendo about Scott Macklem trying to smear his name, trying to suggest that there were other risk factors in his life, Mr. Kinzu's crack team of investigators has tried for 40 years now to try to discover any evidence that Scott Macklem was involved in anything untoward, and they have found nothing because there is nothing to find.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_03] And as someone who cares about the people in this case, I'm sick and tired of hearing this murder victim's name being dragged through the mud in an attempt to wave the flag for the man who killed him. By all means, if you have some solid evidence that Scott Macklem or any other murder victim was doing something shady, then share it. If you don't have any solid evidence, then don't do it. Just leave it alone.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_03] Don't sully the name of a dead young man in order to wave a flag for Temujin Kinzu. It's offensive.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_04] I'll sum it up. Shut the fuck up about this. Okay? You have fucking nothing. You're making a fucking fool of yourself. Disgusting. And also, stop fucking blaming his family for it. The reason police weren't able to come up with anything on Macklem was because there was nothing. He had nothing going on. Okay? He didn't drink to excess, let alone do drugs, let alone sell drugs. He was the one beer at a party type guy.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04] He didn't even smoke fucking cigarettes. He didn't have a bunch of enemies. His only enemy was Kenzu. All this shit about him missing class. He was about to become a dad. He didn't know what the fuck he wanted to do with his life. He needed a balance. He needed a balance. Do I stay in school and get a degree? Do I go get a job now? What am I? Like, they had a wedding to plan in a couple months. They had to prepare for the birth of their son. They had a lot going on.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_04] They had a lot going on that very easily explains why, like, maybe fucking gym class at his fucking community college wasn't the most fucking important thing to him at the moment. I don't know why we keep fucking dancing this dance. Like, why? Fucking Herb Welleser if he has anything on Scott doing drugs.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_03] And if he does, share it.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_04] Well, he doesn't because he didn't give anything to us. So, I mean, he's got fucking nothing. A political bigwig. How fucking dare you? Being the mayor of Croswell is not being a political bigwig. Also, the murder didn't happen in Croswell. Didn't happen in Sanilac County even. It happened to county over.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_04] So, you're saying the reach of Croswell, you know, home of this beet processing plant, whatever, is just so great that they're able to, the long arm of Croswell's going into St. Clair and making them be corrupt? Like, what are you fucking talking about, you lunatic?

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03] And, Mr. Habel, this is another reason why people are upset about some of the coverage around this case because people don't like it when people lie about murder victims and try to smear their names. And again, totally unnecessary.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, and his smug voice. Yeah. You know, he was a bigwig. Yeah. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Why would you cover a case where you don't know what the fuck you're talking about?

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03] Well, if you're annoyed by his smug voice, this next clip is going to send you over the edge. I know it is. You may recall, everyone, that about a year or so ago, we had Mr. Kinzu's daughter, Lena, on. Wonderful person. Wonderful, wonderful human being. And in the course of that interview, she told an anecdote about an interaction she had with Mr. Habel. I will summarize her account. Basically, she said he was a condescending prick.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_03] Before we aired that, we reached out to Mr. Habel for his response and his interpretation of the interaction he had with Lena. And he refused to reply, but he did offer his version of the exchange on Brett and Alice's show. So out of fairness to him, let's listen to what he had to say.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00] There was a day where someone asked me if I'd seen her post on Facebook. And I was surprised. I said, no, I didn't know about it. So I was immediately sent to go look at it and I read through it. And my first reaction to reading her post was, this is a woman who has kept a lot of stuff bottled up for a long time and has now exploded. You know, she's done. Done just waiting on the sidelines and keeping her mouth shut.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00] So it felt very real to me. That's how I took it. And then I heard that she would want to speak with me. And so I think the first word that comes to mind was, I got a little too excited about that because you have to understand, it seems like no matter what's gone on in Temujin's life, the people that have claimed to be harmed by him, I should say, they don't do interviews and stuff. You know what I mean? Like they're not out there fighting the fight or anything. And I don't blame them.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00] A lot of people who've suffered at someone's hands, they just want to get away. They just want to live their lives. So when I had the chance to speak with her, we were talking and she had mentioned how she had some things that maybe would help me, you know, understand Temujin better and the case better. And I'm like, I want whatever you have, you know, I can set up a drive or you can mail it or whatever you need to do. I want to see all of it, whatever you think I need to see.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00] But unfortunately, there was a point where she asked me something like, do you think that he's innocent or something like that? I can't give you an exact quote. I don't remember it, but I remember it being a question of innocence or guilt. And I said, well, have you looked into the trial?

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00] Because again, I've looked through the trial and if you're looking for a fingerprint, if you're looking for blood, for DNA, if you're looking for a plane ticket or a record or anything that could clue you into him having a part in this, it's not there. Okay. I've read through it all. I welcome anyone to tell me if there's something in the trial transcript that relates to evidence of Scott's murder at the hands of then Frederick Freeman. I want to know about it. I haven't found it.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00] That I think was not received well. And one of the things that anybody, myself included, can miss is that some people have been traumatized, you know? And when I think back to that Facebook post that she had made, it makes me think that when I said that, even if I'm totally in the right and I have a right to say it, it's a trigger. And I think she got triggered. And then even though I was like, well, I'm sorry that, you know, this didn't go well, but I'd still like to see stuff.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00] I think at that point she was just like, I just want out. So, you know, for me, I just want all of the answers. I want all the evidence. I want to see what everybody has.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03] So, again, he's basically confirming what Lena said, that he is, in fact, a condescending prick. Because when you reach out to people involved in cases, we've had a lot of people on the program with direct ties to many, many cases. And let me give you an insight.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_03] If you want people to talk to you, if you have an opportunity to talk to someone who has a direct connection to the case, you make it clear to them you want to hear what they have to say. You don't lecture them.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04] You don't say, how well do you know your own dad's case?

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, Lena knows more about Temujin Kenzu than Aaron Habel ever will. That's her father. So, when he tells her, oh, you should look at the court transcript to find that I'm right. That's being condescending. That's being arrogant. That's telling this person, I don't care what you think. I want you to agree with me. That turns people off. That's why I'm guessing Lena didn't want to talk with him.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03] And then saying, oh, she was triggered. That is so condescending. I think if someone reached out to me about my father and acted like I needed to do research so I would know that the person on the phone knew more about my father than I did, I would make an intelligent decision. This is not someone I want to talk to. So, I don't think she was triggered.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_04] It's just no curiosity. Like, you're saying the wrong thing, Lena. Why don't you be like me and skim over two seconds of the trial and not actually read the whole fucking thing, obviously. But I know more than you.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, there's nothing in the trial transcripts that's evidence. Yeah. He was convicted and the conviction has been...

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_04] He's convicted, you dumbass.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03] The conviction was repeatedly upheld.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Oh, yeah. The case was so weak that it fell. This is the other thing we try to... Like, if you want to say, well, it's not enough evidence for me, that's fine. Okay? Maybe I don't want you on a jury involving anyone that I love, but that's fine. You know? Like, we can agree to disagree on that. But acting like it's some kind of, like, abhorrent thing, I can't believe he even got convicted, the jury made a credible decision. Okay?

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_04] Even if you disagree with it, you have to admit, like, there's a lot more there than we've been told in the past. And to act as if, like, the trial didn't prove him guilty is just facetious. He was convicted by a jury of his peers. What are we fucking talking about? But, yeah, his treatment of Lena, she's a highly credible person. So, I mean, I believed it. We tried to get his side. He basically confirms it with this crap. But it just shows you the kind of condescending lack of interest in anything.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_04] Like, that's a moment where you're like, wow, the guy, I think, is the light of the world's daughter disagrees. Why does she think that? You don't even have to agree with her. You don't even have to, like, now you've changed my mind. It could just be like, why do you think that? I want to know. And that could have, then you could have a really interesting conversation.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. He's one of those guys where his every motive is to bully people into agreeing with him. And most people find that to be a really unattractive quality in a person.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know about bully, but I would say definitely just, like, he doesn't, he doesn't understand how people could disagree with him. And it's like, yeah, that's, that's where we're, this is the real world, okay? This isn't fucking true crime, you know, online spaces. You know, when we look at the, the totality of people affected by this case, and we look at the totality of the fucking court system, you know, not like little fucking, you know, concurrence.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_04] No, when you look at the totality of everybody, people think this guy's fucking guilty and they think it was a fair trial. You are in the minority, Abel.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_03] So let's get back to clips from Framed itself. He, at one point, makes an interesting statement about the relationship between Crystal and a parking lot witness, Renee Goldbein.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00] Waiting a sentencing date, he gave a phone interview with the Times-Herald. This was the first interview he had given since being arrested in November of 1986. In it, Freeman contended that Crystal, Goldbein, and Joplin had all lied in their testimonies. First, Fred insisted that he'd never raped or hurt Crystal, as she had alleged, nor had he killed Scott.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00] He denied being at the crime scene as Gobine had testified and maintained that he never admitted to Joplin that he shot Macklem. He also told the media that Gobine was a close friend of Crystal's, a detail that was not mentioned in trial.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_04] Why might that not have been mentioned in trial, Kevin?

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_03] Well, it's not true. A journalist's job extends beyond just repeating stuff he's heard Temujin Kinzu say. Before you pass things on, you need to check to see whether or not it's true, especially if you're talking about claims made by someone like Temujin Kinzu, who has a very tenuous relationship with the truth. We checked out this claim. It is not true. It is just not true.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_03] So this is another lie that Mr. Habel is spreading on behalf of his dear friend Temujin Kinzu.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_04] And you know what? Like, I think this is lazy, but if you want to do it, fine. And certainly in some cases I understand it. You could even say, he says this, but I wasn't able to find any evidence supporting that. Because then at least that lets your audience know that that's unconfirmed. And it's truly unconfirmed. And you tried to confirm it and you were not able to. It makes them judge it differently. It makes them weigh it differently. You're giving them all the information you have. But if you're not able to confirm it, you should either not include it or you should point out that you were not able to replicate that.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_04] And you know what you could even do since you are like, you know, apparently in close contact with Kenzu at all times? Maybe you could ask him, you said this in the newspaper. What is your evidence for this? And if he gives you something concrete, great. You solved the mystery. If he doesn't, then maybe you need to start questioning the accuracy of his statements. This is how journalism works. I don't know what Habel considers himself. A journalist, a podcaster, whatever.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04] But when you're going to be putting something out there like this, that is the very least wearing the garb of journalism and wearing the garb of something that is objective and credible and all these different things. You owe it to actually be walking the walk and practicing journalism and not simply being a stenographer for a convicted murderer who has every reason to lie to you and who is used to lying to people because people don't traditionally back check him for whatever reason.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_04] And you know what? In fairness to Habel, I've certainly seen a lot of people who are like certainly actual journalists working for actual mainstream outlets who have completely dropped the ball on the same front, who have completely ceded over editorial control to this guy for reasons I am baffled by. And frankly, I'm going to put this out there.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_04] If you are a Michigan journalist or you have been a Michigan journalist at any point or you have any experience working in the Michigan media market, please get in touch with me, murdersheet at gmail.com. I want to know what is happening and why this story has been so botched for so long. There are so many issues in this story as far as the media side of it that I don't understand.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_04] And I thought a lot of problems with the media kind of were the result of social media and the result of like modern day things. But this is sending me. So please help me out here.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_03] There was another comment from Mr. Habel on witness Kathy Dyer.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00] I don't understand how you could say, well, it makes sense that he could get back after a 9 a.m. murder, make it back to talk to people at 12 p.m. You literally have to say that Kathy is lying when she's a teacher with a long work record. She's a nurse. She went to court to testify despite not even being friends with Freeman.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_03] So again, no one says that she is lying. She was mistaken. She got confused, intentionally confused by Temujin Kenzu.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_04] Through Manali.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_03] Through Manali. The juror who spoke in an interview shortly after the trial indicated he thought that he or she, the jury, thought that Ms. Dyer was mistaken about the time.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_04] Don't you love this appeal to authority? She's a teacher and a nurse. I think people can make mistakes, even teachers and nurses. Those are responsible and good jobs that, you know, you hope people who are responsible and good hold because they have a lot of power. And that's great. We respect nurses in this house. We respect teachers in this house. We know from the testimony, we know from these different reports that she makes a comment or Manali makes a comment to her like, oh, you just saved this guy's life. Isn't that wonderful?

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_04] Someone who might be really well intentioned might like the idea that they are righting a wrong and helping someone out. That can maybe lock them into a position that they have no business locking themselves into. It does not have to be a conscious lie. It's just something that feels right and they're going to go with it.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_03] Judging from this next clip, I am not sure that Mr. Habel understands how jury deliberations work.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, my goodness. Motions in limine, commutation hearings, jury deliberations. What's that? What's that? The fugitive. That's accurate, right?

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00] We have we have seen movies where we see jurors deliberating together and there's always that move to get them to be convinced so that we can get out of here. You know, and I wonder if that was part of it, that it's like, look, why are you trying to defend this guy? Didn't you see how he was smirking at us during the trial and how his alibi seems too perfect? There's something wrong with that, dude. And I wonder if over time they just wore the others down.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_04] Fan fiction.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. There's no there's no evidence that someone said, oh, you need to change your mind and convict him because he smirked. He's he's just wildly speculating. And when people wildly speculate, they do it because that's all they have.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_04] He seems to think that it's sinister that they deliberated and initially, you know, had their votes and then voted again and voted again. And that is very normal for jury duty. Like, it's very rare that you get people who are like members of the Borg who have a hive mind and immediately say, like, after one vote, we're all in agreement. It's usual for people to say, well, here's my thoughts. Here's my thoughts. Vote again. And you're getting closer and closer to agreement.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_04] That's part of the process. How do you not know that? And I can guarantee you if the same thing had happened, same votes again and again and again and led to acquittal, would he have a problem with that? I wouldn't. I mean, I would because I would think a guilty man escaped justice, but I wouldn't I wouldn't be like that sinister. That means that they were being threatened by him.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_04] Like, no, it's just that's part of we covered the Delphi murders case and they had multiple votes. Nobody ever was for acquittal. There were people who were undecided and then there were people for guilty. And they would vote a couple of times and the numbers would change and kind of slowly they got to the point. No one was being berated. It was just a simple, hey, let's like lay out all the evidence again. And if we disregard these pieces of evidence, do we still all come to the same conclusion? And eventually they got there. Nothing untoward about that.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_04] The fact that he's like just like in his little head, just doing all these little like, oh, must be this.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03] I think before the next clip, there's a number of things you wanted to discuss. So I will sit back and let you.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_04] I just think this is so funny at this point. He says this. Things were beginning to look up for Freeman. No, they weren't. Like. Like. In your mind, maybe. But at this point, the jury had heard all the witnesses. They were not impressed by the karate studio witnesses. And they were impressed by the parking lot witnesses. And they also were impressed by the witnesses who were like, yeah, he called me and tried to get me to give him a phony alibi.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_04] So I would say things were looking down for Kenzu at this point. He fails consistently to talk about how the karate studio witnesses kind of were a package deal in that they needed each other in order to remember what day it even was, which you can imagine is not great for a jury. Okay. Glosses over that completely. I want to take a moment to talk a little bit about Dean.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_04] He talks about David Dean, the defense attorney, having a cocaine problem, having a drinking problem, being an alcoholic, being an addict, all of these things. And I think that's fine to bring up. He was by all accounts. He was disbarred over it, essentially. And, you know, I think that's fine to talk about. But I just find I have a little bit of experience with this being an addict myself, being a recovering alcoholic myself. I think it's important when we're dealing with people who are addicted to, like, look at the totality of everything.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_04] And when I read the trial, I see Dean as a pretty incisive attorney. He's really doing a pretty tough job on cross. I thought he did a good job with this case. Did he do everything perfectly? I'm sure not. But did this prosecution do everything perfectly? No. Like, attorneys aren't perfect. I think Dean came probably as close as one could have to getting him off, honestly.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_04] The things they beat up Dean for, like not putting Michelle on the stand we've talked about, that would have been a bad idea. And, you know, oh, not letting him testify. Well, he said himself he didn't want to testify. I mean, you're an attorney, Kevin. What do you think about Dean? Am I overselling Dean?

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_03] I think he did a great job. That doesn't mean he did a perfect job. I'm sure you can always go back and look and say, oh, he should have done this. He always should have done this. Some of those cross exams he did were very, very effective and brought up potential issues with some of the witnesses' testimony.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_03] So I thought he did a fine job.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_04] I thought he did great. With the addiction side of things, yeah, certainly that casts a pall over everything he does if he's having active addiction. But I will tell you, when I was drinking at my heaviest, I was killing it at work. Like, I mean, like, that's very common. There's a lot of, I mean, high-functioning alcoholics are a real thing. And, you know, you can't necessarily maintain that level of high-functioning forever if you're drinking that much or abusing that much.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_04] Eventually, it's probably going to come crashing down. But that doesn't mean that I think if you'd looked at my work and, like, how much I was producing and how happy my bosses were with me at the time when I was probably at the highest level of how much I was drinking, you wouldn't have seen anything was wrong. You would think this person's doing really well. She's hitting all her objectives. She's getting a lot of stories. She's doing this. She's doing that. And everyone's happy with her.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_04] It doesn't always look like it's spilling into every aspect of your life. Sometimes that takes time to happen. And oftentimes it's the people who are, like, very high-functioning where, like, maybe at the time where they're dealing with the stress of this and they're drinking a lot, like, after work, they might be doing okay, like, when they're actually at work. It's just a lot more nuanced than I think. I feel like people hear addict, people hear alcoholic, and they think, oh, this guy's falling down drunk in the courtroom.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_04] I've also, interestingly, because of this, I don't know if I should even keep this in here, but people, we've gotten emails from, like, to me, from, like, I think Kenzu fans or, I don't know, maybe whoever. And they're like, Anya, you just overly relate to Crystal. You just believe all women. You're just on the women's side. And you know what? I'm going to be honest with you. The person I relate to most in this story is David Dean.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, you know, because he's like, I've been there, you know, not with the cocaine, but certainly with the drinking. And I don't know. I just, I think it's more nuanced. I think it's important to recognize that it's more nuanced. And I think, honestly, the Dean thing that I find the wildest thing is that after all this is over, like, after he was, like, getting disbarred and all this stuff, he just came out and was like, yeah, I think this guy's guilty. This is his own defense attorney.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_04] I think that is the equivalent of, that is, like, the meme. That is basically a defense attorney flipping off the defense attorney deity and moonwalking backwards into hell. Like, that is wild to me that he did that, but kind of funny. And not for nothing, one of Kenzu's theories for many years, I don't know, is it still his theory, Kevin? Probably not.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_04] One of his theories for many years is that David Dean, his own defense attorney, who, again, we think did a pretty good job in representing him, was actually the real murderer. The guy who really had Scott killed.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it's dumb. It's so incredibly dumb.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_04] Like, apparently he's terrible at being a lawyer when he's on cocaine, but really good at planning murders. So that's what I wanted to say about Dean. Sorry to derail.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_03] No, that's fine. I don't have any clips until, like, I have, like, two more clips near the end. So whatever you want to say about these next couple of episodes.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_04] One thing, you know, naturally, you know, he's a sloppy podcaster, so naturally he's going to fixate on the plane theory. I don't believe the plane theory. I believe that if you discount the Karate Studio witnesses, which I do, it becomes extremely possible for him to have driven the whole thing. Is it tight? Sure.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_04] But you have to remember some of these witnesses who kind of are at the edges, the fringes, they originally gave him a lot more room and then over time started bringing it earlier or later, depending on what side they were on. And again, I don't think those people are lying. I just think there's the power of persuasion. And I think that, you know, so we have that going on. Cleland put on a witness who was, like, his personal pilot. I don't, they make a big deal about that. I just, I don't, I don't really care.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_04] All they're saying is, like, can you fly from Escanaba to Port Huron and, like, how long does it take and how do you do that? They're not saying he did it. They're not presenting evidence that they did, that he did it. They're just saying, you know, flight logs were not really rigorous back then. There's been airports that have been cited as possibilities, but I've also been aware that there are even maybe smaller, sketchier airports, you know?

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_04] And we know for a fact that Kenzu was palling around with some sketchy people back then. You know, it is really, I don't think he flew because I think if he flew, he would have had a way better alibi. I think he would have had more than just the karate studio people. That's the thing that throws me off the plane.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_04] But as far as, you know, this kind of statement that, hey, they're not that rigorous, it wouldn't cost that much money. We know he had money and all of this stuff. It's just, it feels like people make way too much of a thing about this.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_04] And I think it's because they want to talk around the weakness with the alibi witnesses and the dearth of alibi witnesses, because we're told again and again that there's nine alibi witnesses. And if you're being really generous, there are only three that mattered. Only three. Really only one in my view, dire. But if you want to count the others as scaffolding for her, then that's fine. He talked about how Cleland was, you know, doing all this. He says this.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, during direct examination of several witnesses, he effectively planted a seed of doubt regarding the possibility of any witness tampering by the defendant. He doesn't go into that at all. But that's not really the same thing. Earlier he was saying, like, these guys weren't impeached and all this stuff. And then he's like, well, yeah, I did. What do you think that means? Words have meaning. Here's another freaking thing with Crystal.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_04] We know the Port Huron detectives had zeroed in on Fred Freeman based on a few offhand comments by Crystal and her sister at the hospital. That is absolutely not what fucking happened. These were not offhanded comments. He threatened to kill Crystal repeatedly and the people she loved, including Scott. And then he did so. And her sister was aware that something was really wrong in her sister's relationship with this guy. And she was concerned.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03] If you were honest, even if you have the mistaken idea that Temujin Kinzu is innocent of this murder, you still need to acknowledge there were valid reasons why he should be suspect number one. It's not hard. It's not hard, Mr. Abel.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_04] You can almost hear him wailing about this, wailing and gnashing his teeth. He says, the state's theory relied on the jury believing that Freeman, 23, was a violent, manipulative, self-proclaimed ninja warrior who was consumed by jealousy and rage with an unrelenting need to control his former girlfriend by any means necessary. Yes. Where's the lie in that? One decent sentence you wrote in this whole thing and you're acting like it's not true.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_04] And also, this has all been borne out by incidents since. He mentions him marrying Denise without mentioning, you know, the rampant, emotional, vicious, psychological and whatnot abuse and threats that he put her and Michelle through that were recorded on tape and then published by us. I kind of think if you mention Denise as being his number one champion, you should mention how he treated her. That seems highly relevant.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_04] He talks about how his alibi was corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses that are highly credible. Jury didn't think so. Also, how many? Because I think only three matter and I'm being really generous with three. In fairness, this is one thing I actually appreciate. He does mention that they only brought in the plain thing because Kenzu bizarrely was bringing that up himself in calls to, I believe, Crystal. You know, but like, again, so it's like he has all the pieces to kind of fit together why things were done a certain way.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_04] And then he just overstates it and still acts like he doesn't understand it. I like this one. It's important to note that we are not legally trained, but instead used a variety of publicly available articles and documents in our research. We have tried to state things as accurately as we are able. What is that sentence? Also, like, no, you haven't. Fucking shows that you're not legally trained. I'm not legally trained and I'm not out there fucking talking out of my ass.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_03] You're not citing Injustice Buster's blog.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, wow. Well, Injustice Buster's thinks this, you know, again, this is where they're like, oh, Dean thought he was guilty. Dean, welcome to the team. You know, he talks about this, quote, the brief charge that Prosecutor Cleland also elicited excessive sympathy from the jury by constantly referring to the victim's fiance, Crystal Merrill, as a poor pregnant farm girl. Here's the thing. Crystal was pregnant.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_04] She is sympathetic and believable. And that's why people like you, Habel, have spent decades trying to tear her down because she's really important and she is really sympathetic and she is someone who is a true victim in this. And, you know, Kenzu can't have that. He's the ultimate victim, right? You know, they go into all this legal stuff. I mean, like his interpretations just are whatever. Like, I mean, as he said, he's not legally trained.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_04] They act like it's a big gotcha. Like, oh, the jacket wasn't really his. He says the army jacket. First of all, we've heard that that's not even true. And second of all, he admits that he had access to it at the time. So it's just like, OK, what the fuck's the point of that? He talks about Kenzu as a black leather jacket or black wool peacoat kind of guy. Barf. Also, that's not what we've heard from people. At one point, he says this. This is like my freaking trigger of this case.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_04] After pointing out what the author termed as numerous additional errors and false statements, the blog entry concluded that the nine alibi witnesses had unequivocally proven Kenzu's innocence. OK, let's stop there. Who are the nine? Who are the nine? Also, why in this podcast where you're presumably supposed to be doing your own research, you're citing fucking injustice busters? Why is so much of this just cited from non-primary documents? I don't know. Is it because you're really lazy?

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_04] He talks about how Sanders considers Kenzu a political prisoner. A political prisoner of what? Is he a political prisoner because he hates everyone who isn't himself? Is it because he's being discriminated against because he's a white man, Hable? Is that what you're concerned about? Like, does he share his politics? I think we're getting to a clip part here, Kevin.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_00] Play it. On November 4th, he married a woman named Paula Randolph, whom he'd fallen in love with despite being behind bars.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah, this episode actually ends with, oh, isn't this great? This great woman has come into his life. It's true love. It's so wonderful. And how's that marriage going, Mr. Hable? And why are you acting like they are still together when she filed to end the marriage months and months ago? And why aren't you sharing with your audience why? Why she filed to end the marriage?

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_03] She filed to end the marriage because Mr. Kenzu sprung on her that he expected her to add sister wives to the relationship.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_04] It's also come out that he was extremely emotionally abusive toward her.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. I think most women listening to this probably have a very instinctive, visceral reaction to the idea of sister wives being added to a relationship. I think that really tells you something about a man if he would spring that on his wife. And what it tells you is he's no damn good.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, well, Kevin, Catholicism is all about respect for the spouse. Don't you know that?

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_03] As long as that spouse is Temujin Kenzu.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_04] It's all about giving him whatever the fuck he wants when he wants it. You know? I mean, you know, he says in episode eight, episode eight is a bit of a different thing. And he starts out by saying, quote, but now it's time to take a look at the situation from an alternate perspective. Sort of seems like a tacit admission that this whole thing has been completely one-sided.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_04] He finally gets into the commutation hearing a little bit in perhaps the most bizarre and weaselly way imaginable. Kevin, do you want to talk a little bit about how he does this?

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, he says that in late 2025, a 1,300-plus page transcript was shared with several podcasters. You know, the fact of the matter is our episodes in which we cover this commutation hearing in depth came out in May of 2025, well before the time it was allegedly shared with several podcasters. It also is a public document.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03] So what he's saying is he's making an admission that despite his supposed years of research on this case, he'd never bothered to seek out this document. And it's a very relevant document indeed.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_04] The most bizarre thing to me of this, I'm going to be very blunt about this, is that, you know, he has access to this document presumably, or he should. And certainly we'll go into this more later, but we offered it to him. But, you know, he, instead of using his own brain and his own analytical abilities, whatever those might be, to go through this and assess it and see what he thinks is relevant and what he doesn't,

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_04] he instead completely relies upon the analysis already done by the console podcast. Now, let me just be very clear with this. I respect the hell out of Julia Cowley and her colleagues on that show. They have their own different interpretation of this case that we do not share. But I understand where they're coming from because they're coming at this like FBI profilers, which is their background.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_04] They have different criteria of what they're looking at. That's fine, okay? And they, you know, they talked about it and they came to a different conclusion than us. That's fine. But that's their analysis. He proceeds to basically cite them the whole time rather than, like, put himself out there and give an opinion. I find that highly bizarre. And all I could think of the whole time when I was listening to his episode eight,

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_04] anytime he'd be like, well, the consult says this and the consult says that and the consult. I was, it reminded me of 1984, right? I'm imagining him, him sitting there being like, how do I, how do I mention this stuff so I don't get flamed by my own audience, but also that I don't get in trouble with Kenzu, you know, the light of the world. I don't want the light of the world to go dim on me. So what do I do?

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_04] Well, the only negative stuff I'll cite is stuff that I can put in the mouths of other people. And then I just kept on thinking 1984, do it to Julia, do it to Julia, right? Don't get mad at me, Kenzu. Julia said it. You know, I mean, it really is shockingly cowardly. We felt like based on stuff we were hearing that he was going to at least get into the commutation hearing.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_04] And we were kind of, a lot of our, our views on how bad the show was, we were withholding final judgment for this episode because we thought like maybe he can kind of redeem it if he comes out and says, listen, I kind of fucked up. I thought this guy was great, but he sucks. He doesn't, there's no, there's no grappling with him trying to get this guy out of prison.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_04] There's no grappling with all the nice things he said about what a wonderful person he is and how we shouldn't begrudge in pieces. No grappling with anything. It's just, well, the consult says this and the consult says that. I can't believe that, you know? He doesn't seem to fundamentally understand what a commutation hearing is. And, you know, of course he naturally comes to the conclusion, well, yeah, he probably still didn't do it. And the crime is so different than what I think he, this is kind of the crime he would do.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_04] And, do you want to play this clip?

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_03] Sure.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_04] This is where, again, something we've heard similarly from Habel again and again, why he thinks this couldn't have happened. He couldn't have killed this guy.

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_00] Play it. Moreover, there were no instances where he used a firearm or even threatened anyone with a gun. Even if Kensou had somehow managed to pull the wool over multiple young witnesses' eyes in order to secure alibis from them, is he really that diabolically shrewd a manipulator that he could also influence the truly impressive group of advocates and professionals from all walks of life that he's managed to assemble?

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, like, if he was guilty, could he have fooled someone smart like me? Yes. And also, let's not pass over what he said that Kensou never threatened anyone with a gun. That's simply not true.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_04] Not true at all.

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_03] That's not true at all.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_04] There's a whole incident that's documented in the police file where his landlady talks about this. There was basically a guy who crashed into a fence at the property he was renting. He came out with a revolver and accosted the man. You know, there's an incident where a woman who he was with at the time, he had her feel his bag of guns. She didn't see the gun, but she felt something that felt like a gun in the bag.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_04] And then you have Crystal, Crystal's sister and Crystal's boyfriend, where they see the shotgun. And Crystal describes the shotgun. She does not use the word shotgun. She does not know. She's not an expert in that. But this is what she describes what she saw. And she says it looks like a shotgun. So to act as if he never threatened anyone. I mean, there's that whole incident with the revolver. It's just it's just ridiculous. You just you just fucking lying or you just don't know the case. Let's talk about this whole impressive group. Right.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_04] Because, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of people who advocate for him. I think a lot of those people either just don't know the case very well or ignorance. In other words, there's some who I respect who I think have narrowed their view of this case over time. Maybe went from being like, oh, it's obviously wrongful conviction to maybe being like, well, it's not enough evidence for me. They've kind of tailored it. They're still on the innocent side. But they also don't go around defending Kenzu. And they they don't think that Crystal perjured herself.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_04] So they're kind of in that narrow space. And I respect that. I don't agree with it. I respect it. I would I think the consults there. I think the prosecutors are there. The podcast, you know, people that I respect. We've had them on the show. I appreciate them coming on. And and that's something where it's like, I think we can agree to disagree. It might just be that people view it differently based on their own experiences, their own feelings, their own. What do you put weight in? Do you put weight in this witness or that witness? That's all fine. There's no issue. So there's that.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_04] And then there's people I think are just really cynical. And I don't think people often ask, like, oh, is he really charming? Is it like is there people just really naive? I don't think it's that. I think it's the people are freaking cynical as hell. I think someone like Hable is cynical as hell. And here's why I say that. I don't think it's naivete. I think this guy comes off badly, frequently in public. I think if you look at his social media, he comes off badly, frequently in public.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_04] I think what you have with people like Hable are they get into this case and they want to tell a story about an impossible murder and these evil cops and these evil prosecutors who railroaded this poor guy because they thought he was a ninja. And they want to give you another satanic panic horror story. And why let the fucking facts get in the way of good story? That is what they're they're not in some ways.

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_04] They actually in some ways don't give a shit about Kenzu, although they certainly act like they do. That what they really care about, that they want to tell a story where they can be all morally indignant and righteous and tell you about how horrible it is that something like this could happen in America. Because that's the story they want to fucking tell. That's the story that matters to them. That's the story that makes them feel like they're these moral crusaders and muckrakers and they're fucking not.

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_04] They're flax for a convicted murderer. And at a certain point, the rip current gets them and they go out to sea and they can't they they don't want to fight against the current. And so they're just gone. They're just gone from an intellectual honesty capacity. I just felt like again and again, Habel's telling us in subtle ways and in not so subtle ways. I care more about narrative than anything else. I care about how movies make me feel.

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_04] Then what actually happens in a case. And I think this is the direct result of that kind of attitude. What do you think, Kevin? Do you have a different view?

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_03] No, I agree with you completely.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, he his whole thesis of episode eight is there's three sides to the story. Yours, mine and the truth.

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_03] No, there's the truth. There is the truth. And the truth in this case is very clear.

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_04] The truth in this case is something that these guys want to stuff into like a storage unit somewhere and ignore. But I think when you look at the totality of everything, the truth about what really happened to Scott and about who is culpable for it, about who did it. And about what he's done since and about who Kenzu really is, is really clear.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_04] I want to say one more thing. That includes hundreds of pages of testimony detailing his history of rape, sexual abuse, death threats, stalking. We're happy to send it to you. We can send you case files from the case. We can send you court files, page numbers, etc. If you want us to back up what we're saying, we will cite chapter and verse for you, sir. We will make your job so easy.

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_04] We send him a whole list of things that we think you should know about if you don't already, because we'd already heard from Lena that he seemed very much on one side of this. So we figured, listen, let's treat him like he's a good faith actor and come into this and say, here's stuff you should consider. You don't have to come around to our viewpoint, but you should probably at least mention some of this or talk about it in your show, regardless of where you come down. That includes things like how the discussion of how many witnesses for his alibi there were is always wrong.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_04] And in fact, there's really only three that matter. The emphasis on the plane theory versus driving is wrong. We talked about the witness tampering. We talked about the alibi witnesses who denied seeing him, the so-called alibi witnesses who wouldn't give him an alibi. We talked about how he was threatening one of his girlfriends to coerce her into giving him an alibi for a different location than Escanaba. How he had a lot of money from his scams. We talked about the parking lot witnesses. We talked about the book.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_04] We talked about the allegations of rape by at least three women and the allegations of abuse by at least six women. You know, we talked about the recordings, I believe. We talked about our interviews with different people in this case. We talked about the white supremacist literature he's been found with in prison. You know, we said we think the public is best served when given all the facts about a case like this. Ultimately, people can come to their own conclusions about whether or not they'd vote to convict based on the evidence.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_04] But we feel strongly that some of the misinformation that's been peddled endlessly in the traditional press and new media has got to be retired. As does the misogynistic victim blaming that crops up whenever creators are raised, can do's rape and abuse victims or mock their testimony as unbelievable despite the fact that these women are all independently corroborating each other. End quote.

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_03] So now, Anya, Mr. Habel, when he was discussing Lena with Brett and Alice, said that his attitude is he wants everything. He wants all information. So I assume he responded to us and let us know, send it off. Is that what happened?

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_04] No.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. He basically said, oh, I got this.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_04] He basically said, oh, I have the commutation hearing I was given by somebody who knew I was working on the story. And I have his book. And I'm recording the podcast now and I'm not going to make any public statements. Again and again, it felt like I don't know if this was like what this was, but we reached out to him a bunch of times saying, hey, can we talk to you for the show? Can we actually get the episodes early so we can kind of do something under embargo and put it together?

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_04] He didn't want to give us that. I understand that. He didn't want to talk to us. He kind of jerked us around. I felt like I felt he was kind of disrespectful and wasting our time. Like there was one point where he was almost dangling. Well, I'm going to have people on my show.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And I thought that was odd. It was like he was trying to hit. Well, maybe you guys should ask to come on my show.

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_04] No, I'm not going to play that game.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_03] If you want us on the show, ask us.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Like, don't don't be like that. Like, it's insulting to us. We're not doing this because we want fucking credit. I don't care about being on somebody's fucking show. Like, frankly, I would rather people just do the fucking work themselves and come up with this stuff independently and figure their shit out. You don't have to cite us if you do that. You're going from the original documents.

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_04] But if you're going to put this show together and you give a shit about at least representing both sides, then I don't know why you wouldn't engage with us more. It's like he just it was just this weird, snooty, weird, weird, tried hard. And at a certain point, it just became like he's just jerking us around. He's not he's not interested in actually engaging. You know, and I don't know why he wouldn't have been.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_03] But I guess I guess I mean, I think I know why. Well, I think I've said this before. To be blunt. You know a lot more about this case than he does.

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_04] I think we do.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_03] And I think he's scared to talk to somebody who knows about the case who disagrees with him. The people he's had on his show, the shows he's gone on are either people who agree with his conclusion or people who don't know the case well. And, you know, we all the time talk to people who disagree with us, both in our lives and professionally. We recently went on a Bob Ruff show to talk about Delphi and Temujin Kinzu.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_03] We have the confidence it's OK to talk to people who disagree with us. That's fine. He doesn't seem to have that.

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_04] And yeah, we would have held his feet to the fire about all that he omitted and all that he messed up in this if we talked to him. I mean, we probably would have been a little bit nicer about it, but it needs to be talked about because, I mean, he did a bad job.

[01:18:29] [SPEAKER_03] He did a profoundly bad job. He caused a lot of pain to people who didn't deserve it. If he has any trace of a conscience or if he has anything approaching a decent human being, he should apologize to people he's wronged. He should explain it's not a good idea to dox rape victims. He should also put out an episode correcting his many, many errors.

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_03] I would be happy to provide a list of errors because there are errors he made that we didn't even get to in our show because we only had a few hours. He really did some irresponsible, shoddy work. And what upsets me is pointing it out. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to matter. There doesn't seem to be enough accountability in the true crime world these days. People can put out shit. This is literally shit that really hurts people. And like a month later, people could just forget about it.

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_04] No one gives a shit. Well, it didn't affect me personally. So whatever.

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_03] And people would still say, oh, yeah, he's a nice guy. I like Generation Y. And I think there should be accountability. I think there should be accountability. If you do as bad a job as he did with this, if you hurt innocent people, maybe stop listening to him. You know, maybe think this isn't a guy I should trust. If he thinks a rapist is the light of the world, if he lies about a case, if he likes the idea of doxing rape victims, maybe this isn't a good man. Maybe this isn't a guy I should be rewarding with my time and attention.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_04] To me, it's like, why wouldn't you care? If someone came to me and said, like, you really did a very bad job with this to the point where, like, here, here, and here, you got this factually wrong. And this is why this is victim blaming. And this is why this is minimizing rape. I would be horrified. I would probably question whether I wanted to continue being in that space because I would be like, that's I've done something awful.

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_04] And I would try to make amends because we all are capable of making pretty severe, hurtful mistakes. And sometimes I think what really is a show of character is how we respond to that. Do we get defensive? Do we double down? Do we go back to abusive patterns and trying to, you know, raise abusers over everyone else? Or do we sit with that and actually say, yeah, I did mess up and I'm sorry. I mean, because that would be a show of character to me.

[01:20:46] [SPEAKER_03] But he has stopped responding to us.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_04] But if we did reach out to him, say we were going to do this episode and that we were going to go at him pretty hard.

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_03] But if any of you get answers from him, please feel free to share them because maybe there's some reason I'm not aware of that would explain away all of his atrocious, really disgusting behavior. But I feel almost physically ill talking about what he did. And I know how it's affected people who didn't deserve it.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_04] Well, I will just end by noting that, you know, people should be on notice in this case. If you want to come in and do rape apology. You know, we will point it out. And I think that our opinion matters to a lot of people who follow this case at this point. If you want to put out something that you think he's innocent, that's fine.

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_04] But don't fucking go at these people and don't fucking say Scott's a drug dealer and don't be victim blaming and don't be re-traumatizing people needlessly. Say what you have to say, base it on the evidence and don't get a bunch of shit wrong that exclusively benefits the convicted murder in this case. I want people to be on notice. This is not a case that we're fucking around with.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_04] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon dot com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_04] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.